Laura: Hello, and welcome to The Neurodivergent Teens Podcast.
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\n(Music)
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\nHi everybody, welcome to The Neurodivergent Teens Podcast.
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\nIn this episode, I am going to
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\nbe chatting to Lila about their
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\nexperience of being a trans woman and
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\na neurodivergent trans woman.
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\nLila: Yes, many different things going all at the same time.
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\nLaura: The first thing that we were going to talk about is the fact
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\nthat a higher percentage of the trans community
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\nare neurodivergent compared to - which way round is it?
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\nIs it that there's more neurodivergent people in the trans community
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\nor that there's more trans people in the neurodivergent community?
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\nLila: It's a good question, because, I mean, they're basically both correct.
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\nI would say that in terms of the spaces I
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\ninhabit online and in person, I see a lot more of like neurodiversity
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\nwithin trans groups than trans groups within neurodiversity.
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\nBut that could just be because I spend like a specific amount of my
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\ntime with young trans people who are very aware of neurotypes.
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\nSo that could be like a selection bias going on.
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\nBut yeah, it's kind of if you are autistic, you are more likely to be trans
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\nif you're trans, you're more like to be autistic.
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\nThere's a correlation of if you're atypical in one area,
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\nyou're likely to be atypical in another.
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\nLaura: Okay.
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\nObviously, I've known you for what, three years now, Lila?
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\nLila: Yeah, three years!
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\nLaura: And I have to say that I felt very privileged
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\nwhen you came out as trans.
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\nYou know, you shared that information with me before you came out more publicly?
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\nLila: Yeah, a little bit.
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\nThank you for that.
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\nProfessionally coming out was the last step I did.
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\nAnd I think when you were the first professional contact I had who I came out to.
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\nAnd coming out, particularly as somebody who has, you know,
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\nlived the decent part of their life
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\nas a different gender is a difficult thing to do,
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\nparticularly when you're not certain how it's going to go down.
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\nI knew that you were accepting and kind, so
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\nI didn't worry about that, but in terms of like family
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\nmembers, friends, uh colleagues, it can be really scary coming
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\nout, particularly to somebody who is ridiculously sensitive.
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\nLaura: And that's a really important thing that you've brought up there, isn't it, that I
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\ncan imagine for any young person to come out as
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\ntrans must be quite frightening, depending on like the support you've got.
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\nI'm sure for any trans person, it's going to be a big deal.
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\nWhen you couple that with the rejection sensitivity
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\nthat neurodivergent people are more likely to experience,
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\nI guess it could make that process more frightening.
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\nLila: Yes, something that I have quite often is, although
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\nI'm very openly and proudly trans, I struggle correcting people
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\nthat's something I want to do more, particularly because I work in a school
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\nand I often get referred to as like Mr. Langton instead of Miss Langton or
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\nhe instead of she. It takes more willpower than I'm happy with to
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\nspeak up and say, oh, actually, it's not Mr., it's Miss,
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\nIt's not he, it's she.
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\nAnd I think that's because I'm quite sensitive and
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\nI'm worried about it being taken the wrong way.
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\nI'm worried about asserting myself in a way that's quite uncommon.
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\nAnd that definitely links to my neurodiversity in terms of like
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\nfeeling so uncertain about my emotions,
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\nI don't want to take up any space.
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\nLaura: Yeah, it's just an added layer, I guess, in the whole process.
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\nWhen did you realise that you were trans?
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\nWas it something that you've always known?
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\nWas it like uh, can you talk through that a little bit more?
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\nLila: Um, for me personally, I realised in January
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\nof this year, just about 10 months ago, I think.
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\nAnd it was something that I never realised.
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\nLaura: Really?
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\nLila: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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\nOh, there's this really good book called, uh, "Nevada" by Imogen Binnie.
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\nAnd she's a trans woman.
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\nAnd I could relate quite strongly to her experience of a lot of people assuming that
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\nyou know from a very young age, you knew when you were 6, you like to wear
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\ndresses and you like to play with like dolls.
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\nAnd a lot of conceptions about trans women, particularly
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\nyoung trans women is that they're very effeminate, they're very slim
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\nand they've always known this.
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\nAnd as soon as they transition, they kind of disappear into the background.
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\nAnd that's not how it works for a lot of us.
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\nI didn't realise I was trans until I was 20.
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\nAnd although I knew that there was something like definitely queer
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\ngoing on, I could not label it for the life of me until this year.
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\nAnd it was the source of a lot of anxiety
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\nand uncertainty, lots of therapy sessions.
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\nThat didn't go anywhere because I didn't know what was happening.
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\nAnd it took me just
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\nstaring in the mirror one day as I'd slowly been experimenting with my gender
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\nmore and more to realise that I was really happy with the fact that I looked
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\na little bit feminine that day and just wanted to keep on being feminine,
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\nlike pushing it as much as I could.
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\nLaura: That's so interesting.
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\nAnd and of course, there will be some people listening to
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\nthis whose experience would be that from a really young age, you know, they
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\nidentified as a different gender.
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\nLike that might be someone's experience.
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\nBut it's, it's really interesting what you've just said because
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\nI actually worked with a young person for a long time who is trans.
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\nAnd it was really interesting because before they came out
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\nas trans, similar for them, it was was like, oh,
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\nI'm trans.
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\nLila: Yeah.
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\nLaura: But actually, what was really interesting is
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\nthat when they were female before they
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\ntransitioned, they dressed incredibly like girly.
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\nLike, you know, it was almost like they were exaggerating
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\nthat femininity.
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\nIt was a very similar experience that you explained that
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\nit was like almost like a penny dropping.
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\n"That's what's going on here."
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\nThat moment when you looked in the mirror and you thought,
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\nI'm a woman, was that like a moment of like euphoria
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\nof like, I know what's going on now or how did you feel when you had that clarity?
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\nLila: For a lot of people, it can arise a whole array of emotions
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\nI did feel like an intense sense of euphoria,
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\nkind of like I was waking up. And like within half an hour
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\nI went downstairs and I told like,
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\nI told my mum and I told my sister, we had a
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\nreally nice chat, like an hour just making
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\njokes and I felt really chilled out and happy.
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\nBut for a lot of people, like I am kind of an exception in terms of
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\nthe average experience in the trans community.
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\nI - my family like that I am happy and they
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\nare they are happy that I'm trans because that has made me a functional
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\nhuman and like quite proud of myself.
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\nFor a lot of people, there is
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\na reasonable fear surrounding coming out, coming, recognising that.
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\nAnd they can't say for certain that they will get that support.
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\nAnd so often it can be a mixture of joy
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\nthat they know who they are, anticipation for what could come,
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\nnervousness because this is an entirely new life,
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\nfear about family, about jobs, about friends.
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\nThere's all sorts of things.
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\nBut for me, it was just a very exciting moment.
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\nLaura: Oh, and that's wonderful.
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\nAnd I mean, obviously, I know your family a little bit and I know that they are
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\namazing and incredibly supportive.
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\nSo I know that you've you've been really fortunate there.
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\nBut as you said, that's not going to be everybody's experience.
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\nAnd again, I've worked with young people who are trans who
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\nhaven't received the same support, unfortunately,
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\nfrom their parents. Or they might have received it from one parent, but it's
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\nbeen a lot harder for another parent too.
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\nLila: Yeah, I know a lot of cases that are more close to that.
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\nLaura: Yeah.
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\nLila: Yeah, yeah, it's tough.
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\nIt's really difficult.
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\nLaura: Yeah.
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\nAnd then, of course, wider a family as well being understanding
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\nand accepting, I can imagine, you know, my my
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\ngrandparents, for example, particularly one of my grandmas, would
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\njust not have been able to get her head around it at all.
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\nShe would have been I mean, I can't imagine her reaction if she had been told that
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\none of her grandchildren was trans.
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\nI think she would have just said something like, oh, it's just a phase...
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\nLila: There's the phase, yeah...
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\nLaura: Or it's a fashion...
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\nLila: That's one thing I know we did want to talk about is generational differences.
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\nThe difference of 10 or 15 years in each generation
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\nmakes wild variety of, um, behaviours.
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\nLike, obviously, there is a larger proportion
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\nof the like Gen Z and even alpha generation
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\nwho are openly LGBTQ as opposed to the older generations.
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\nAnd the younger generations tend to be more accepting,
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\nalthough not all of them particularly like young white men can be quite
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\negregious, but then there are some like millennials who are really accepting.
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\nAnd then there are
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\nthe older generation who have a tendency towards being less accepting,
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\nbut also some of them are lovely. On an individual level, it can
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\nvary, but generationally speaking, it's like the younger you are, the more likely you
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\nare to be exposed to the kind of content
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\nthat makes you more accepting of LGBTQ people.
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\nLaura: I think my first experience of meeting gay friends
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\nwas when I was at university...
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\nLila: Yeah, I remember that too.
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\nLike even I went to secondary school five, four
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\nyears ago now and even then it was like a big deal
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\nwhen like somebody came out as gay.
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\nI think it happened once,
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\nand he got like a boatload of questions and then probably
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\nfelt very uncomfortable because it is not something that is seen as normal
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\nto the point of if it happens, no one minds.
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\nIt's expected that you aren't gay and then - or queer or trans.
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\nAnd then when you are, it becomes sort of an object of fascination
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\nand the same right to privacy that you would have had if
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\nyou weren't queer kind of goes away a
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\nlittle bit as people just, asking questions and making your
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\nlife more public and that can be very difficult, especially when you're young.
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\nLaura: I think for myself, like my generation, in a way it's true.
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\nOne of the things that I know I am is accepting.
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\nOne of the things I know I am not is educated.
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\nYou know, I've still got so much to learn about this
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\ntopic and I worked with a wonderful trans client a few years ago
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\nwho was so happy to kind of educate me.
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\nAnd I was like, I don't know what all these terms mean.
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\nLike, what's "cis"?
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\nWhat's this?
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\nWhat's that?
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\nAnd they they were like, okay, Laura, I'm going to give you a lesson in all of this.
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\nAnd I was like, yes, please, because it's so important for
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\nme, particularly because I work with young people
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\nand I work with young neurodivergent
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\npeople, that I'm saying the right thing. And I
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\nknow that I don't always get it right.
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\nAnd I was going to ask you, Lila, have you experienced
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\npeople saying the wrong thing, using your dead name?
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\nHow does that make you feel?
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\nHow do you deal with that when it happens?
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\nLila: That is a very good question and it depends on the situation you're in.
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\nObviously, if you haven't come out yet,
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\nlike I've got a neighbour who still calls me by my old
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\nname and I haven't told I haven't told him anything.
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\nAnd so I'm not going to get upset when he gets my name wrong.
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\nIf it is a close family friend or somebody
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\nyou're in a relationship with, if they were to dead name me or
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\nmisgender me, all I would do is kindly correct them
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\nand most of the time they will correct themselves.
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\nThey'll go, oh, sorry, meant to say Lila.
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\nAnd in that case I just say that's okay.
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\nAnd then we continue talking.
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\nThe only issues really arise from
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\npeople who are too young to have been exposed to
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\nthis before and so will demand that no, you aren't a
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\ngirl, which is very funny I've had to deal with that quite a few times.
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\nUm, or people who refuse to understand.
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\nIn those kind of situations, it would be best just to not engage if you can.
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\nBut most of the time people
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\npeople aren't like overtly unkind.
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\nAt the worst, they're largely ambivalent.
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\nSo what I would do is I would simply correct them.
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\nNot in a mean way, just say, "oh, I changed my name recently,
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\nIt's Lila."
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\nLaura: Mmm.
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\nAnd so with your workplace, have they been supportive?
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\nLila: They have.
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\nThey've been lovely.
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\nI, um, I did worry about that a lot.
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\nAnd although on the individual levels, sometimes there are,
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\nlike issues in terms of me getting misnamed, they correct themselves.
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\nAnd it's lovely.
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\nAnd I have like all the kids at work,
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\nI spoke to, I think it was on Monday, some of the girls in your five came
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\nup and one of them said, have you changed your name?
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\nAnd I said yep, it's Miss Langton now,
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\nit used to be Mr. G, buy it's Miss Langton.
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\nI was like, it's because I'm a girl now and she said, no you're not.
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\nAnd I said, yes, I am.
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\nAnd I had to explain it like quite patiently because that can
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\nhappen a lot, particularly with young people.
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\nLaura: And I think it's wonderful that those children have
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\nthe opportunity to be with someone like you.
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\nYou're going to be teaching them so much around acceptance and understanding.
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\nAnd I'm sure
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\nthere are young people you work with who are
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\npossibly trans and are going to look to you as somebody that
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\nhas inspired them, actually, and been able to sort of look and and
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\nthink, well, Miss L...
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\nLila: I get that a lot.
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\nLaura: Yeah, Miss L,
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\nshe's an amazing person and I really like her.
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\nAnd I'm sure if you were to stay in that place of
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\nwork for some time, I'm sure Lila, that someone will come to
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\neventually and say this is something that potentially they've been questioning
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\nand you could really help a young person with your experience.
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\nLila: A big, like, perk of being openly trans and proud of it is that
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\nit allows other people who are trans to be open and proud of it.
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\nLaura: Mmm. So we know that not everybody is going to have
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\nthe same experience that you've had.
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\nYou know, your experience has been very positive.
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\nYou know, your family had been very accepting, your work have been very accepting,
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\nbut, you know, not everybody is going to have that same support.
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\nSo what would you advise, Lila,
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\nif somebody is listening to this and they know
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\nthat they're trans or they're questioning their gender,
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\nbut they're frightened to talk to a parent or they're frightened to talk to
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\na teacher because they don't know what response
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\nthey're going to get and they may not feel that
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\nthey're going to get the support that you have had,
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\nlike what would you advise?
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\nWho could they talk to?
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\nWhat support is out there for them?
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\nLila: That is a very good question and one that I've had to
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\nask myself a couple of times because I've been in that situation.
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\nThe easiest things to do like that
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\nanybody who's like questioning can do without fear of much like social [ostrasism]
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\nis to get online to find trans communities.
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\nI know that Reddit is quite good for that.
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\nThere's this one blog called "Stained Glass Woman".
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\nShe's a trans woman.
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\nShe's been out for four years, I think and she's great.
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\nI love her.
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\nShe's a professor and she does like articles
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\non what it's like to be trans and how to come out
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\nanywhere to family, to friends, to work... Her articles on coming out are really good.
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\nAnd in terms of more like meet space, real world people,
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\nit's best to try and start safe so you can build up confidence.
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\nMaybe you have friends who are already queer.
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\nMaybe you're in a close relationship with somebody who you trust to let them know.
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\nMaybe you have like a grandma or a granddad
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\nwho is quite open about that and wouldn't judge you in like a heartbeat.
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\nIt is inherently a very difficult thing to do,
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\nand sometimes you will be in situations like with parents who don't accept you.
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\nAnd in that situation, the best thing you can do is find a way to get
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\nsome money, work, and then move out
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\nbecause you can't educate everyone.
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\nJust if you don't have the people in your life who
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\nare accepting you now, you need to find a way to leave those people
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\nand find the ones who will, which is easy to
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\nsay for me as an adult with a job, but it's difficult when you're
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\nyoung if you don't have family who accept you.
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\nSo the safest things to do would be to go online, Stained Glass Woman
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\nis good, find other trans people, find other trans people in person.
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\nI really want to stress that in person is like a gamechanger, the most important part.
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\nAnd if you are in a situation where you aren't being supported,
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\nget out.
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\nLaura: Yeah.
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\nAnd particularly if you coming out actually makes you feel unsafe as well,
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\nI think that's really important that you've got that get out as well.
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\nWe've talked about this already in some of the other episodes about just
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\nbeing neurodivergent is so important that you can be authentic.
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\nAnd as neurodivergent people, we're already masking to fit in.
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\nSo masking your neurodiversity and then masking
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\nyour gender as well, like it must double the kind of weight of
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\nthe mask that you're carrying around.
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\nAnd I think also it must be confusing as well sometimes.
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\nLike, you know, you must be people must question, am I trans?
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\nI don't I don't know.
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\nLike and I guess those forums are probably really helpful to have
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\na safe place to ask questions and really
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\nget a better understanding of yourself before taking
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\nbigger steps of of coming out.
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\nLila: Yeah, I mean, I was so full of doubts for
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\nlike half a year because it's such a big thing and it's difficult
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\nto wrap your head around when you've been living
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\nlike as the opposite gender for 20 years.
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\nIt takes a while for your brain to accept that.
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\nAnd obviously starting slow allows you to to have the
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\nchance to change your mind if you want to.
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\nAnd that's a big, like that's a big benefit of taking it
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\nslow is it gives you the option to back out at any time.
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\nAnd when you have that like option in your head,
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\nit feels like more of a choice unless it's a thing you have to do.
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\nThere's a big thing in like trans communities for people who
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\nrecently realised that you have
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\nto like be a 110% certain or you're not really trans and you're doing it for fake reasons.
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\nAnd that's obviously very silly, but the fear is so strong
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\nthat it stops people in their tracks like multiple times.
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\nLaura: So can I ask as well, Lila, have you spoken to
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\nanybody or have you done anything about changing your physical
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\nappearance that you've become a trans woman?
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\nLila: Um, yeah, obviously that's like a big part of transition.
\n
\nOne thing I do want to stress is that you don't have to do that to be trans.
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\nLike, I have non-binary friends who aren't on any
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\nmedication and don't have like any surgeries.
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\nAnd I have non-binary friends who have, but still go
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\nby their old name and their old pronouns.
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\nSo like it does depend each transition is deeply personal
\n
\nand there is no checkmark for which you have to reach,
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\notherwise you're not trans.
\n
\nLaura: A really important point.
\n
\nLila: Yeah, like each one is individual. There is no goal you have to reach.
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\nIt is very much your choice.
\n
\nYou take it as slowly or as quickly as you want.
\n
\nI got extremely lucky.
\n
\nI live near Brighton and there are some it's called an informed consent model.
\n
\nThere's some informed consent clinics there.
\n
\nBeing trans in this country is kind of bad.
\n
\nIt's not very good.
\n
\nThe healthcare system requires you to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria,
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\nand it requires you to have two psychiatric assessments,
\n
\nand also occasionally to require you having lived in your gender for
\n
\nsix months before you can get onto hormones.
\n
\nAnd that could take years.
\n
\nThe waiting list is often around anywhere between four and six years.
\n
\nAnd for children it's currently around three or four, particularly because
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\nthey closed the only GIDS clinic in March
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\nand they've failed to restaff an appropriate number.
\n
\nI'm currently like emailing my GP about this.
\n
\nThere's a whole, it's a whole thing, but obviously I'm,
\n
\nnow that I'm on HRT, I'm a lot more comfortable in
\n
\nmy body and I have noticed a few changes, like, um...
\n
\nI have a lot less body hair,
\n
\nI have like, hair on my head is growing back a lot thicker,
\n
\nmy skin is a lot softer,
\n
\nI smell different, which is lovely,
\n
\nI have to shower less often, um which is gross, but very, you know, convenient for me.
\n
\nBut it's honestly, it changes everything, like eye shape, finger width,
\n
\nheight can change by an inch or two,
\n
\nIt can change bone density, muscle mass,
\n
\nmetabolism, sexuality can change quite strongly, although that one's variable.
\n
\nLike it is every single facet of your body
\n
\nis liable to be molded and manipulated by hormones
\n
\nbecause they mark a key part of our physical growth.
\n
\nAnd having been on HRT has like vastly improved
\n
\nmy life for the better and I feel a lot more excited and just happy.
\n
\nAnd I'm still early days as well, like
\n
\nI still look in the mirror and go, oh, no, that's not what I want to see, but I'm still
\n
\njust happy to be on HRT and excited about my body
\n
\nbecause I have that future ahead of me.
\n
\nLaura: So if someone's listening to this and and they would like to take
\n
\nthat step, should they go to their GP initially or would
\n
\nyou recommend going to more of a sort of specialist?
\n
\nLila: Honestly, it's a really tricky one because this
\n
\ncountry is awful for trans healthcare.
\n
\nIf you live an hour and a half away from Brighton
\n
\nor within that like time frame, change your GP to WellBN.
\n
\nThey are being like
\n
\noverwhelmed by the amount of trans people if you want their
\n
\ninformal concent model, they might do shared care for your GP.
\n
\nSo if you live near Brighton, try and change it to WellBN, that's W E L L B N.
\n
\nThey got me into hormones within like three months.
\n
\nAnd if you like where Sussex, I think you get options
\n
\nto fertility preservations for 10 years,
\n
\nvoice training, stuff like that.
\n
\nI think the only realistic way you're going to be able to get HRT in this country right
\n
\nnow is to go private, which is really expensive,
\n
\nlike we're talking 60 to 100 pounds a month.
\n
\nLaura: Wow, okay, that's a lot of money.
\n
\nOkay.
\n
\nLila: Yes, it is.
\n
\nLaura: Yeah, that's terrible, really that there's a, there's
\n
\nsuch a high financial cost attached to people feeling happy in their bodies.
\n
\nLila: Yeah, it's actually really annoying because being trans
\n
\nmeans that in this current world, it's like your happiness is locked behind a paywall.
\n
\nI have beard like laser surgery on
\n
\nmy face and I don't really have any facial hair anymore and I love that.
\n
\nThat's great.
\n
\nAnd I'm also doing like voice training.
\n
\nLike most of my paycheck goes towards like transitioning.
\n
\nAnd I'm lucky that I have that option, like not even just like privilege.
\n
\nA lot of people don't have that option and they are being
\n
\npunished for something that isn't their fault.
\n
\nLaura: Yeah.
\n
\nSo the last thing I want to ask you,
\n
\nLila, well, I first want to say, I love the name Lila.
\n
\nLila: Thank you.
\n
\nLaura: And I just wondered why you chose it.
\n
\nLila: Um, I thought it just sounded pretty.
\n
\nLike I came across a game called "Who's Lila?",
\n
\nit's a very meta, meta like weird game, very fun to play.
\n
\nUm, but I just like the name that stuck in my head so I chose it.
\n
\nI was going to do Lola initially, but there's a song about a trans woman called Lola.
\n
\nUm, I thought Lula wasn't wasn't my vibe.
\n
\nThere are so many trans women called Luna and like Lily
\n
\nso I was just like screw it, Lila, that'll have to be it, and it worked -
\n
\nLaura: It really suits you as well, I really like it.
\n
\nLila: Thank you.
\n
\nLaura: Well thank you for this chat,
\n
\nI thank you for your honesty and your openness
\n
\nand educating me a little bit because as I said, it's definitely something that
\n
\nI need more education on.
\n
\nSo are there any other links or organisations,
\n
\nLila, that you think would be good to share with people?
\n
\nLila: Yes, absolutely.
\n
\nSo online resources, for when you are kind of coming
\n
\nto terms to your gender, the I found really helpful were
\n
\nStained Glass Woman, who I mentioned before,
\n
\nthere's also something called The Gender Dysphoria Bible, which goes through like
\n
\nevery single change that, um, masculinising and feminising
\n
\nHRT can provide you.
\n
\nThere's something called The Null HypotheCis.
\n
\nThe cis part of that spelt C I S because, you know, it's a pun.
\n
\nAnd that was a really lovely blog for like working out how to
\n
\nunderstand like your own gender.
\n
\nI would also just open up Google and see if there are any queer spaces nearby.
\n
\nI go to one of my local library.
\n
\nThere's also one at like a church in Brighton that I go to.
\n
\nThere are a whole bunch of them nearby.
\n
\nYou just have to like Google them, depending on your area.
\n
\nAnd also, if you're in school,
\n
\nI would recommend perhaps reaching out to any counsellors that these school have.
\n
\nMaybe they have a social emotional and life skills coach or something
\n
\nthat you could speak to regarding that.
\n
\nBecause if you can get the school to help
\n
\nyou do a transition, then that can give you a lot of confidence, particularly
\n
\nbecause you know that like basically administration is on your side.
\n
\num if you're dealing with bullying or something like that at school, it's nice to know that
\n
\nsomebody has your back, particularly if that somebody is the head teacher.
\n
\nLaura: Yes, absolutely.
\n
\nAnd I think, I think schools are are definitely
\n
\nhaving more of a focus on LGBT awareness
\n
\nand understanding now as well, because it's something that does affect so
\n
\nmany young people and and it's something that they,
\n
\nthey do need to be made more aware of.
\n
\nLila: Yeah, it's a big thing at the school I work at.
\n
\nWe had a rainbow day, like a pride week day.
\n
\nAnd that was lovely
\n
\nI wasn't out by that point, but I came in wearing -
\n
\nwearing a coat with loads of like queer patches on.
\n
\nI had, I had makeup all over my face and I dyed my hair a stronger blue for it.
\n
\nIt was a lot of fun.
\n
\nAnd all ended up teaching the kids was that it's okay to wear clothes that
\n
\naren't associated with your gender and to be proud of yourself.
\n
\nAnd that is - that is just a really simple nice lesson to be able to teach young people.
\n
\nLaura: Such an important message just that it's
\n
\nit comes back down to just allowing people to
\n
\nbe authentic and and that they can feel safe and comfortable being authentic as well.
\n
\nLila, this has been really, really fascinating.
\n
\nSo - and thank you for sharing as I said, and thank you
\n
\neveryone for listening and I hope you have found this helpful.
\n
\nLila: Yes, thank you for having me.
\n
\nIt is my favourite thing to talk about, like whenever,
\n
\nSo it was, it was a pleasure.
\n
\n(Music)\n\n
